For The Experts

Re: For The Experts

Postby Rod Trussbroken » Sat May 16, 2009 2:55 am

Chuck B wrote:throwing in my 78
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still very cool looking finish, no hairline cracks...


I'd know that Beauty anywhere Chuck [smilie=grinning-smiley-003.gif]
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Re: For The Experts

Postby Rod Trussbroken » Sat May 16, 2009 2:57 am

Ken Baker wrote:
harleyyy wrote:And I thought Poly was indestructible?


There's poly and then there's poly.

Polyurethane (think Minwax or Flecto Varathane) is hellishly strong and can put up with all kinds of crap. There are different formulations for wood finishing use, typically interior and exterior, and there are other types are well. They are, for the most part, excellent finishes that will last for years given reasonable care.

Polyester (think Krylon and hobby finishes) is quick & easy to apply, handles and works like lacquer, and is cheap. Finish crazing is common, among other ills.

This may have been the period when George Fullerton's insistence on using only good stuff and good processes was temporarily overruled. Thankfully, it only lasted long enough for Leo to realize that the cost cutters were screwin' the pooch.

Ken...


Great explanation..thanks
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Re: For The Experts

Postby Funkster » Sat May 16, 2009 5:00 am

Thank you Ken, Mine does not have a blueish hue to the clear so that means it would be poly,, It is checked like crazy but it wreaks of Mojo...
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Re: For The Experts

Postby Rod Trussbroken » Sat May 16, 2009 5:10 am

Funkster wrote:Thank you Ken, Mine does not have a blueish hue to the clear so that means it would be poly,, It is checked like crazy but it wreaks of Mojo...


Henry..have you had it since new? How's it been stored between playing?
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Re: For The Experts

Postby Chuck B » Sat May 16, 2009 3:13 pm

Rod Trussbroken wrote:I'd know that Beauty anywhere Chuck [smilie=grinning-smiley-003.gif]


When I posted the first pics of Brownie back in the dudepit I somebody couldn't believe that this is the original finish...
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Re: For The Experts

Postby Funkster » Mon May 18, 2009 9:21 am

Rod Trussbroken wrote:
Funkster wrote:Thank you Ken, Mine does not have a blueish hue to the clear so that means it would be poly,, It is checked like crazy but it wreaks of Mojo...


Henry..have you had it since new? How's it been stored between playing?


Ken I only have had it for about a month, It was stored in his basement at his house here in MA (Major temp fluctuations), He got it from the original owner in NY who played it every weekend up into the late 90's, t's been played to death but it is a Kller bass.
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Re: For The Experts

Postby heavychevy » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:34 am

That's a minty Sting Ray you got there Henry...I've played it many times, it just has gobs of mojo pouring out of it [smilie=grinning-smiley-003.gif]
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Re: For The Experts

Postby Funkster » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:22 am

It's definitly a KEEPER!! I been working on buying that one for years and the planets finally aligned where I had the dough and he needed the dough...I been gigging with it pretty Regularly although she might stay home for the places I got coming up next... lol..
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Re: For The Experts

Postby Templar » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:12 am

Hey Henry...The Nitro used by Music Man had a Blue tinge to it. I've just noticed now that Deans pic (first pics in this thread) has it too. You can see a hint of Blue caught by the light just above the pickguard. Some were Bluer than others.


Interesting. I don't know what was gooped onto my '76, but it was unbelievably thick. This was a very early bass, maybe from the first batch. The entire bass was covered in long, deep spider-web finish cracks. The edges of the burst had blushed badly, resulting in a prominent blue-gray "fog".

I have my theories, but would love to know exactly what happened. Anyone?

btw....this bass was recalled by the factory, and was not supposed to be sold, but I fanaggled it anyway.
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Re: For The Experts

Postby Caca de Kick » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:41 am

Shouldn't nitro glow under a black light? Might be worth a test to see. Sort of like that blue tinge is showing from the camera flash.

My white 78's finish is pretty thin, but is majorly spider web checked all over, just like what Templar is describing on his. But I have no idea what material the finish is either.
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Re: For The Experts

Postby Rod Trussbroken » Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:24 am

Templar wrote:
Hey Henry...The Nitro used by Music Man had a Blue tinge to it. I've just noticed now that Deans pic (first pics in this thread) has it too. You can see a hint of Blue caught by the light just above the pickguard. Some were Bluer than others.


Interesting. I don't know what was gooped onto my '76, but it was unbelievably thick. This was a very early bass, maybe from the first batch. The entire bass was covered in long, deep spider-web finish cracks. The edges of the burst had blushed badly, resulting in a prominent blue-gray "fog".

I have my theories, but would love to know exactly what happened. Anyone?

btw....this bass was recalled by the factory, and was not supposed to be sold, but I fanaggled it anyway.


Yikes. Any pics and more history details?

I
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Re: For The Experts

Postby Templar » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:10 am

Yikes. Any pics and more history details?


No pics, sorry. Some boring details, tho. (boring as hell, to all but the most ardent MM enthusiasts)

Sunburst, white guard, black pup, black tolex. No memory of the serial number, but I found no date markings anywhere on the bass.

Sometime in Spring of '76 the basses still were'nt available in Chicagoland. I stumbled into a piano store one day, and although they did not sell guitars, there were a few old Baldwins & Wurlitzers hanging on the wall. But there was also a brand new MM six-string that caught my eye.

I asked if they happened to have the MM bass yet. "Yeah, we got one yesterday but we can't sell it". He showed me a telegram from MM, instructing them to return the bass to the factory asap, and expressly forbidding them from selling it. Big capital letters....DO NOT SELL.....REPEAT: DO NOT SELL.

This dude was pissed about the whole ordeal. He sold pianos, organs and keyboards. He did'nt really want ANY guitars in his store in the first place. But because he also sold MM amps to go with electric keys, he had to accept at least one bass and one sixer from MM. It was mandatory, same with Wurlitzer and Baldwin, he said.

The bass was in the back room, but he reluctantly agreed to drag it out for me to "just look at". As he opened the case he says..."Look at this fuckin thing. Can you believe it?!" It really was kinda hard to believe. The finish was totally ruined from head to toe.

Anyway, I managed to get it for dealer cost that day. But this bass was almost unplayable. It had soooo much clear coat sprayed on it, including on the maple board.

My theory is that initial Stingray production was delayed for months. When they finally began production, they rushed the paint jobs on an early batch. Then they shipped them out to their earliest dealers before the paint dried properly. This was around April-May 1976, IICR. While it was no doubt warm at the factory in Cali, it was still cold in Chicago and other places.

A couple cold night's journey in a UPS trailer, the paint cracks and blushes.....then the phone calls from unhappy dealers start arriving at MM. At which point, MM immediately recalls the whole batch via telegrams to their dealers. A few examples slipped through, like mine did. Sound plausible?

Rod, I believe you asked George Fullerton about this at my request, when you interviewed him a few years ago?
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Re: For The Experts

Postby Rod Trussbroken » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:43 am

Templar wrote:
Yikes. Any pics and more history details?


No pics, sorry. Some boring details, tho. (boring as hell, to all but the most ardent MM enthusiasts)

Sunburst, white guard, black pup, black tolex. No memory of the serial number, but I found no date markings anywhere on the bass.

Sometime in Spring of '76 the basses still were'nt available in Chicagoland. I stumbled into a piano store one day, and although they did not sell guitars, there were a few old Baldwins & Wurlitzers hanging on the wall. But there was also a brand new MM six-string that caught my eye.

I asked if they happened to have the MM bass yet. "Yeah, we got one yesterday but we can't sell it". He showed me a telegram from MM, instructing them to return the bass to the factory asap, and expressly forbidding them from selling it. Big capital letters....DO NOT SELL.....REPEAT: DO NOT SELL.

This dude was pissed about the whole ordeal. He sold pianos, organs and keyboards. He did'nt really want ANY guitars in his store in the first place. But because he also sold MM amps to go with electric keys, he had to accept at least one bass and one sixer from MM. It was mandatory, same with Wurlitzer and Baldwin, he said.

The bass was in the back room, but he reluctantly agreed to drag it out for me to "just look at". As he opened the case he says..."Look at this fuckin thing. Can you believe it?!" It really was kinda hard to believe. The finish was totally ruined from head to toe.

Anyway, I managed to get it for dealer cost that day. But this bass was almost unplayable. It had soooo much clear coat sprayed on it, including on the maple board.

My theory is that initial Stingray production was delayed for months. When they finally began production, they rushed the paint jobs on an early batch. Then they shipped them out to their earliest dealers before the paint dried properly. This was around April-May 1976, IICR. While it was no doubt warm at the factory in Cali, it was still cold in Chicago and other places.

A couple cold night's journey in a UPS trailer, the paint cracks and blushes.....then the phone calls from unhappy dealers start arriving at MM. At which point, MM immediately recalls the whole batch via telegrams to their dealers. A few examples slipped through, like mine did. Sound plausible?

Rod, I believe you asked George Fullerton about this at my request, when you interviewed him a few years ago?


Great story!

I was told a few interesting things about Pre-EB. With regards to dating, it was recorded with anything the craftsman had at hand which explains a stamp, pencil or ink. If nothing was at hand then no date. Obviously the case with yours [smilie=icon_biggrin.gif]

As I posted above, three finishes were used. They started with Nitro and then with Polyester. It was the Polyester that had the cracking problem. After that they went to Polyuethane. I know from others that a lot of clear coat had been used on the early ones. One of the Pre-EB salesman also told me about the Blue tinge with the Nitro. Your theory concerning your Bass could be correct also.

Apparently they had some other finish probs which wasn't expanded on. However, it was the explanation why, on some instruments, the neck and body dates can be up to one or two years apart. When the instrument arrived back, the necks were re-used. The bodies sat around waiting for a refin. When that was done, a new neck was fitted.

I still find it hard to believe that the factory didn't record the serials. I was told that "sales" could have done it but it seems to be a mystery. Obviously, no one thought it was important [smilie=cheeky-smiley-025.gif]
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Re: For The Experts

Postby Templar » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:22 am

One of the Pre-EB salesman also told me about the Blue tinge with the Nitro.


Ya, that blue thing is part of the mystery. My Ray played so badly, that after a couple months I got fed up with it. So I sanded off all the fretboard goop down to bare wood, intending to re-apply a thin coat of laquer. By this time, the weather was hot and muggy. The neck warped and twisted before I could seal it. I ruined the bass forever.

So I ran a newspaper ad; "Musicman Stingray bass, warped neck. $325 obo". The phone practically rang off the hook. The first caller came right over to see it....plugged in for 30 seconds....and said, "I'll take it." He did'nt even make an offer, just handed me $325. I said, "You know the neck is shot, right?" "Yep, does'nt matter." Off he went with the ruined, fugly Stingray.

Meanwhile, the calls from my ad kept coming in....must have gotten 20 that day, and 20 more the next. I asked one of the callers what the big deal was. I described the horrid finish to him, he replied...."You had a Blue Fog, they're getting $1200 for 'em on the west coast."

Now, I have no idea what anything sold for on the coast, but obviously some people knew something that I did'nt. And "Blue Fog" was a pretty accurate description of this finish. In my case, there was no 'hint' or 'tinge' of blue. The outer edge of the burst had flat out blushed into a nasty, foggy blue-gray.

After that wierd episode........nothing. Never heard another word about the blue thing until reading this thread. Enigma.
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Re: For The Experts

Postby Ken Baker » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:51 pm

Rod Trussbroken wrote:I still find it hard to believe that the factory didn't record the serials. I was told that "sales" could have done it but it seems to be a mystery. Obviously, no one thought it was important [smilie=cheeky-smiley-025.gif]


It is entirely possible that manufacturing logs existed, and may exist to this day.

Early G&L, and presumably late CLF/MM, kept hand written logs. In a spiral notebook. This is all fine & dandy, but the closest any of them got to preservation is when Dale Hyatt left the company and took them with him. It is public knowledge that he has the early, Leo-era, G&L logs. I'm thinking that he also has the CLF/MM logs as well, unless they made their way to SLO with the rightful owners. BP might have an answer.

BTW - Mr. Hyatt will, for a fee, gaze into the logs and give you a nice report on your Leo-era G&L. Retirement supplement? Cigarette & beer money? [smilie=confused-smiley-013.gif]

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