Mr. PC

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Mr. PC

Postby jfh4242 » Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:34 pm

Hi guys, I need some help.

I am working on Mr. PC with Band in a Box. I was wondering how to approach the Cm. According to the key signature, the tune is in C. I cannot understand why. Cm is not part of C! Or am I missing something?

When I am walking on Cm, how will I know which key this Cm belongs to? Like, is it the II of Bb major, the VI of Eb major?

Thanks for any light that someone could shine on this!

John
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Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Re: Mr. PC

Postby Golem » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:15 pm

jfh4242 wrote:Hi guys, I need some help.

I am working on Mr. PC with Band in a Box. I was wondering how to approach the Cm. According to the key signature, the tune is in C. I cannot understand why. Cm is not part of C! Or am I missing something?

When I am walking on Cm, how will I know which key this Cm belongs to? Like, is it the II of Bb major, the VI of Eb major?

Thanks for any light that someone could shine on this!

John
`

I'm not catching the problem somehow .....

If the song is in C and there's a Cm change, isn't it a matter of choice [and appropriateneess to the tune/arrangement] whether the bass sounds that change as minor or not ? And if you [or other instrument] are to sound it in minor, isn't that just a modal change to the tune which remains in C-maj ? When walking it, altho I'd never touch the major 3 note if it's charted for Cm, couldn't I leave out/skip past the III-or-iii issue and still remain on count, frinstintz by doubling up the 5 note ? Even if I play the iii, I think I might invert the chord notes to keep the iii off of the emphasis beats, IF it sounds awkward ON an emphasis beat.

I think I understand WHAT you are asking, about whether it's II of Bb or VI of Eb, but I'm again not catching WHY that matters. It might be either [or both] and your ears will tell you as you try walking it both ways. My understanding is that as we walk thru any changes, ALL notes we use are either from the root key scale, or must fit as passing or leading, and that the ambiguity of certain notes is actually what smooths everything out. So ... if the Cm is ambiguous as to whether its part of the iii or bVII chord is not really a question that needs answering ? I gotta go now. My head is hurtin' ......

`
Last edited by Golem on Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mr. PC

Postby Freddels » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:59 pm

How many flats are listed in the key signature? 2? That would be Bb major and Cminor is the ii-7 chord. Try C dorian on the Cminor chord and F Dorian on the F minor chords.

Edit: I just looked at the Real Book version and they don't have it correctly. I stand by the Dorian mode though. Also, on the G7 in the last 4 I would try using the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale (Ab melodic minor).
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Re: Mr. PC

Postby jfh4242 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:53 am

Golem wrote:
I think I understand WHAT you are asking, about whether it's II of Bb or VI of Eb, but I'm again not catching WHY that matters. It might be either [or both] and your ears will tell you as you try walking it both ways. My understanding is that as we walk thru any changes, ALL notes we use are either from the root key scale, or must fit as passing or leading, and that the ambiguity of certain notes is actually what smooths everything out. So ... if the Cm is ambiguous as to whether its part of the iii or bVII chord is not really a question that needs answering ? I gotta go now. My head is hurtin' ......

`


Maybe it is splitting hairs, it could be. But if it is a II chord or a VI chord, it changes the note choices when you walk it. If I walk a II chord and the pianist solos on a VI chord, isn't is going to sound weird when we get to that note that is different? Maybe in real world jazz, you cannot really hear it, I do not know.

But what I gather from you two guys is to not worry about wether the other guys see it as a II chord or VI chord. And I guess there is no recognized jazz thing that if you see a minor that does not fit into the key signature, it is USUALLY interpreted as a II chord or a VI chord.

I was looking at the key signature to tell me if we are talking about a II or VI chord. But the key signature is C so it is no help. I guess this tune does not have a key center.

Yep, Dorian would work, so I will go with that.

Thanks for the info and discussion, guys!

John
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Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Re: Mr. PC

Postby Freddels » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:13 pm

Hate to throw a wrinkle in but what if it's a iii-7 chord? If it's a vi chord then the added note is Ab, if it's a iii chord then the added notes are Ab & Db. The key signature should have been Bb (if you look at the melody all the B's & E's are flat). In jazz you will hear it. The pianist will hear you. If you continue to play a clashing note he/she may let you know by comping a little harder on that chord when it comes around again and may give you the look. Or may just ignore it and decide not to play with you the next time.

You just have to play with the tune and figure out what sounds good and what doesn't.
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Re: Mr. PC

Postby GLJeff » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:30 pm

Don't you just flatten the E,A and B to make Cm? Are you recording direct or programming it?
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Re: Mr. PC

Postby Freddels » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:32 pm

GLJeff wrote:Don't you just flatten the E,A and B to make Cm? Are you recording direct or programming it?


Cm7 is C Eb G Bb

The OP's questions is more in line with whether the Cm is the iii in Ab or the ii in Bb or the vi in Eb.
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Re: Mr. PC

Postby GLJeff » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:05 pm

I was thinking along the lines of a full scale, which is 3 flats. I don't really think about theory much anymore, that stuffs been engraved in my brain for the last 25 years. I generally look at a fretboard in the context that I can start a scale on the first fret and end it at the 24th, using the modes, hybrids etc..
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Re: Mr. PC

Postby Golem » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:45 am

Freddels wrote:
GLJeff wrote:Don't you just flatten the E,A and B to make Cm? Are you recording direct or programming it?


Cm7 is C Eb G Bb

The OP's questions is more in line with whether the Cm is the iii in Ab or the ii in Bb or the vi in Eb.
`

I 'd go with vi of Eb initially, just cuz it seems so direct, Eb being the principal "minorizer" of the root key [assuming it really indeed IS Cmaj]. Then if that didn't sound appropriate enuf, I'd try it as ii of Bb .... just cuz Bb is a nice leader back to the root key .... and "when in doubt, return to the root".

My apologies in that I'm not reading the song, just spouting my favorite 'crutches' in priority order. But what the hey, don't they say a "crutch in time saves a b9" ? It also helps to know which months have only 30 days, cuz the rhyme for "remembering" that will sound right even when you're saying it wrong. I'm just trying to illustrate the ambiguity thing again. The rhyme for how to tell a coral snake from a milk snake will just as easily get you dead real quick. Be glad it's just a Cm !!!

Whatever Freddels says, that will work. I just wish I could check with Freddels instantly, mid-tune, about 16 times a night :-)

`

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Re: Mr. PC

Postby Freddels » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:33 pm

I wish my mind would work mid-tune every night. [smilie=grinning-smiley-044.gif]
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Re: Mr. PC

Postby jfh4242 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:55 am

I started playing with it enough to know that the Cm on Band in a Box is the vi version because when I run the Bb major over it, it sounds off. When I play the Eb major, it sound in.

The more I fool with it, the more I realize that it does make a difference because if I am playing in Bb and the rest of the guys see it in Eb major, it is not going to sound good. Funny that it is just not specified in the tune information. I guess back then, the guys would write the tune and just tell the rest of the guys in the band. Or maybe the rest of the guys would figure it out by ear on the fly. I donno.

I am not up to the skill level to figure it out by ear, on the fly, that is for sure.

Thanks for the help and comments!

John
jfh4242
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Re: Mr. PC

Postby jfh4242 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:04 am

Freddels wrote:Hate to throw a wrinkle in but what if it's a iii-7 chord?
You just have to play with the tune and figure out what sounds good and what doesn't.


I am pretty sure it is not a iii7 chord because the melody includes a D, not a Db. But you are right that it could have been. I initially did not think of the iii7, but I should've. Damn!

John
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Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Re: Mr. PC

Postby Freddels » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:38 pm

Right, in Major keys, minor chords will be either a ii, iii, or vi and Major chords will be I or IV.
I knew it wasn't a iii-7 and also by looking at the melody, it should be written with a key signature of 2 flats. That's makes it a little easier to analyze.
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