"The Workhorse" is Aging... Electrical Help?

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"The Workhorse" is Aging... Electrical Help?

Postby GonzoBass » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:44 pm

Had a bit of scratch in the tone knob the other day so I gave it a shot of contact cleaner
but then there was also some buzz when I took my hands of it.
Okay, bad ground (again).
No biggie...

Removed the bridge and was wiping the exposed ground wire down with some contact cleaner
(since I had it out)
and the whole wire just pulled out in my hand.

Okay, remove the pickgaurd and resolder a new wire.
We're going in the wrong direction
but again no biggie...

Well, of the 13 small pickgaurd screws required to be removed,
three heads sheared off and four rounded under the screwdriver.
The thumbrest screws were so badly rusted that one rounded after a few turns
but I was able to get enough bite on it with a Visegrip to remove it
and the second rounded without moving.

So the active did the weekend gigs with me.
First time I really put it to work.

Gil Escalera wrote:I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the activeness of it.

- Gil


"Thin"? "Nasally"? "Anemic"?
I dunno.
There's just something missing there that I couldn't dial up with any amount of EQ twiddle
or even with the BBE Sonic Maximizer stomp to try to help it out.

It held it's own for the jazz gigs with plenty of low end for walking through the new MB112
but solos or melody lines were just lacking in presence no matter what I tried
and for the funk/classic rock gig,
it just plain sucked.
No bark/No balls.

I'm on my way to a friend's house today with The Workhorse body
where he's letting me use his drill press to remove the bad screws.

I'll fill the holes with new wood and some glue
then I have a set of brass relacement screws to go all around.
Hopefully this will helps slow the rust/corrosion.

I've swapped them out a few times now
but I guess it's my own damn fault for using cheap zinc coated screws from Wal*Mart
and for letting them get so bad this time around.

Not sure what is missing in the tone equation between the passive and the active;
pickups, the active circuit itself
or maybe because they say that the more you play a bass the better the wood sounds
(and God knows this passive's been vibrated enough...)
but I will be glad to get my #1 back on my lap
and put this active bag in the bag.

Okay, off to the doctors.
Wish us luck!
[smilie=food-smiley-004.gif]
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Aloha-
Papa Gonzo
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GonzoBass
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Location: Hilo, Hawaii
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Tools:
Steinberger XP2 Workhorse (DB Bridge)
Steinberger XP2 (B-E-A-D)
Steinberger XP2A (Back Up)
Wilkat GonzoBass #001
Fender Deluxe 24 Fret Jazz
EBMM Stingray Natural/Maple
Xavier Custom 6 String
Ibanez AEB10K Acoustic
Dean Rhapsody 8 String
Carvin BK2A Fretless
Gibson EB3 (Project)
Epiphone Newport EBS
Synsonic Half Scale
Fender Mandolin
A couple Flea Ukuleles
and a few guitars...

Rigs:
Small-
GK MB112 combo
Medium-
GK MB500
GK 2x10 Neo
Large-
GK 1001 Mark II 2x10 combo
GK 1x15 RBS

Effects:
Line 6 Bass POD XT Live
BBE 462 Sonic Maximizer

Re: "The Workhorse" is Aging...

Postby Gil Escalera » Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:17 pm

GonzoBass wrote:"Thin"? "Nasally"? "Anemic"?
I dunno.
There's just something missing there that I couldn't dial up with any amount of EQ twiddle
or even with the BBE Sonic Maximizer stomp to try to help it out.

It held it's own for the jazz gigs with plenty of low end for walking through the new MB112
but solos or melody lines were just lacking in presence no matter what I tried
and for the funk/classic rock gig,
it just plain sucked.
No bark/No balls.

That description sounds A LOT like a reverse phase issue with the pickups to me.

Some active EMG's, not all, have a subtle "scoop" to them (bumped lows & highs) which of course brings down the mids (a.k.a. definition). Couple that with a phase reversal and you get thin, nasally, anemic. [smilie=grinning-smiley-044.gif]

- Gil
To "B" or not to "B"... that is the question. ;)
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Gil Escalera
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Location: Upland, CA

Re: "The Workhorse" is Aging...

Postby GonzoBass » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:55 pm

Bored a 3/16" hole for each bad screw
and picked up a corresponding dowel at Home Depot today.
Glue and refit tomorrow.

Gil Escalera wrote:That description sounds A LOT like a reverse phase issue with the pickups to me.

Some active EMG's, not all, have a subtle "scoop" to them (bumped lows & highs) which of course brings down the mids (a.k.a. definition). Couple that with a phase reversal and you get thin, nasally, anemic. [smilie=grinning-smiley-044.gif]

- Gil

You, Sir Gil, have my full attention!

I opened the hood tonight
and all the solder joints seem factory.

How do I proceed to test for this "out of phase-ness"?

I make no assumptions to know what this all means
(although I am familiar with the term)
and I am all ears.

Also...
Odd to me was no ground wire to the bridge at all.
[smilie=coz.gif]
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Aloha-
Papa Gonzo
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GonzoBass
Global Bouncer
 
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Links: .
Tools:
Steinberger XP2 Workhorse (DB Bridge)
Steinberger XP2 (B-E-A-D)
Steinberger XP2A (Back Up)
Wilkat GonzoBass #001
Fender Deluxe 24 Fret Jazz
EBMM Stingray Natural/Maple
Xavier Custom 6 String
Ibanez AEB10K Acoustic
Dean Rhapsody 8 String
Carvin BK2A Fretless
Gibson EB3 (Project)
Epiphone Newport EBS
Synsonic Half Scale
Fender Mandolin
A couple Flea Ukuleles
and a few guitars...

Rigs:
Small-
GK MB112 combo
Medium-
GK MB500
GK 2x10 Neo
Large-
GK 1001 Mark II 2x10 combo
GK 1x15 RBS

Effects:
Line 6 Bass POD XT Live
BBE 462 Sonic Maximizer

Re: "The Workhorse" is Aging...

Postby harleyyy » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:04 am

GonzoBass wrote:Bored a 3/16" hole for each bad screw
and picked up a corresponding dowel at Home Depot today.
Glue and refit tomorrow.

Gil Escalera wrote:That description sounds A LOT like a reverse phase issue with the pickups to me.

Some active EMG's, not all, have a subtle "scoop" to them (bumped lows & highs) which of course brings down the mids (a.k.a. definition). Couple that with a phase reversal and you get thin, nasally, anemic. [smilie=grinning-smiley-044.gif]

- Gil

You, Sir Gil, have my full attention!

I opened the hood tonight
and all the solder joints seem factory.

How do I proceed to test for this "out of phase-ness"?

I make no assumptions to know what this all means
(although I am familiar with the term)
and I am all ears.

Also...
Odd to me was no ground wire to the bridge at all.
[smilie=coz.gif]


I'm pretty sure it's just swapping the pup wires.
"I try to keep 'Thou shalt not kill.' The rest of them I'm kind of shaky on." Willie Nelson
"Forget The Drama, Shut Up And Play." ME

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Re: "The Workhorse" is Aging... Electrical Help?

Postby GonzoBass » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:59 pm

Soldered on the new ground wire to where I saw the break-
Tab for the center of the input jack
and measure zero resistance between it and the bridge
but I get a really loud buzz now
that disappears when I am touching the strings, bridge or pots.
WTF?

Bad jack, bad tone pot?
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Aloha-
Papa Gonzo
User avatar
GonzoBass
Global Bouncer
 
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Links: .
Tools:
Steinberger XP2 Workhorse (DB Bridge)
Steinberger XP2 (B-E-A-D)
Steinberger XP2A (Back Up)
Wilkat GonzoBass #001
Fender Deluxe 24 Fret Jazz
EBMM Stingray Natural/Maple
Xavier Custom 6 String
Ibanez AEB10K Acoustic
Dean Rhapsody 8 String
Carvin BK2A Fretless
Gibson EB3 (Project)
Epiphone Newport EBS
Synsonic Half Scale
Fender Mandolin
A couple Flea Ukuleles
and a few guitars...

Rigs:
Small-
GK MB112 combo
Medium-
GK MB500
GK 2x10 Neo
Large-
GK 1001 Mark II 2x10 combo
GK 1x15 RBS

Effects:
Line 6 Bass POD XT Live
BBE 462 Sonic Maximizer

Re: "The Workhorse" is Aging...

Postby Gil Escalera » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:57 pm

GonzoBass wrote:You, Sir Gil, have my full attention!

I opened the hood tonight
and all the solder joints seem factory.

How do I proceed to test for this "out of phase-ness"?

I make no assumptions to know what this all means
(although I am familiar with the term)
and I am all ears.

Also...
Odd to me was no ground wire to the bridge at all.
[smilie=coz.gif]

EMG active pickups have three wires:

White = Signal (+)
Red = Battery (+)
Black = Signal (-) and Battery (-)

The black wires should be commoned (on the back of a pot or else where).
The white wires should go to the circuit HOT (+) on the preamp or to the tab on the pot (passive).
The red wires should all be commoned together at the battery or else where.

If this is all correct, then there wouldn't be a phase issue. Check this first before moving on.

As far as the missing bridge ground wire:
EMG wrote:When installing EMG Active Pickups, DO NOT connect the bridge
ground wire. This wire is usually soldered to a volume or tone
control casing and goes to the bridge. This wire grounds the
strings and uses them and your body as a shield against hum and
buzz. It also creates a shock hazard.

EMG Pickups are shielded internally and DO NOT require string
grounding. This greatly reduces the possibility of reverse
polarity shock from microphones and other equipment.

- Gil
To "B" or not to "B"... that is the question. ;)
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Gil Escalera
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Location: Upland, CA

Re: "The Workhorse" is Aging... Electrical Help?

Postby GonzoBass » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:59 am

Thanks Gil!
Everything seems just as you say in the active.
Guess it's just the tone it'll be giving me.

...but I need to get #1 back on my lap
and the new ground wire didn't fix the buzz.
In fact it's stronger!
[smilie=smilie_kopf.gif]

Went from the tab on the center ring of the jack
(where all the common grounds that are soldered to the case of the pots meet)
direct to the bridge and the connection is good.

Turning the tone pot changes the tone of the buzz
and even with all the knobs on zero,
it's still audible.

Touching the strings/bridge no longer stops it either.

I am stuck.
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Aloha-
Papa Gonzo
User avatar
GonzoBass
Global Bouncer
 
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Links: .
Tools:
Steinberger XP2 Workhorse (DB Bridge)
Steinberger XP2 (B-E-A-D)
Steinberger XP2A (Back Up)
Wilkat GonzoBass #001
Fender Deluxe 24 Fret Jazz
EBMM Stingray Natural/Maple
Xavier Custom 6 String
Ibanez AEB10K Acoustic
Dean Rhapsody 8 String
Carvin BK2A Fretless
Gibson EB3 (Project)
Epiphone Newport EBS
Synsonic Half Scale
Fender Mandolin
A couple Flea Ukuleles
and a few guitars...

Rigs:
Small-
GK MB112 combo
Medium-
GK MB500
GK 2x10 Neo
Large-
GK 1001 Mark II 2x10 combo
GK 1x15 RBS

Effects:
Line 6 Bass POD XT Live
BBE 462 Sonic Maximizer

Re: "The Workhorse" is Aging... Electrical Help?

Postby MoBeach » Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:01 am

Send it to Karl [smilie=cheeky-smiley-025.gif]
Bye
MoBeach
 
Location: Cape Cod
Links: Custom Build P/J, ESP D6, Schecter C4, Yamaha RBX-A2 (E,A,D,G,C) Brice fretless 6er.
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Re: "The Workhorse" is Aging... Electrical Help?

Postby GonzoBass » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Yeah... seriously though,
I can just replace the jack.
but how would I test for a bad potentiometer
to see if this is the cause of the unstoppable buzz?

I have a musical coming up and #1 has to be back on my lap.
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Image

Aloha-
Papa Gonzo
User avatar
GonzoBass
Global Bouncer
 
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Links: .
Tools:
Steinberger XP2 Workhorse (DB Bridge)
Steinberger XP2 (B-E-A-D)
Steinberger XP2A (Back Up)
Wilkat GonzoBass #001
Fender Deluxe 24 Fret Jazz
EBMM Stingray Natural/Maple
Xavier Custom 6 String
Ibanez AEB10K Acoustic
Dean Rhapsody 8 String
Carvin BK2A Fretless
Gibson EB3 (Project)
Epiphone Newport EBS
Synsonic Half Scale
Fender Mandolin
A couple Flea Ukuleles
and a few guitars...

Rigs:
Small-
GK MB112 combo
Medium-
GK MB500
GK 2x10 Neo
Large-
GK 1001 Mark II 2x10 combo
GK 1x15 RBS

Effects:
Line 6 Bass POD XT Live
BBE 462 Sonic Maximizer

Re: "The Workhorse" is Aging... Electrical Help?

Postby harleyyy » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:03 pm

GonzoBass wrote:Yeah... seriously though,
I can just replace the jack.
but how would I test for a bad potentiometer
to see if this is the cause of the unstoppable buzz?

I have a musical coming up and #1 has to be back on my lap.



Awesome info here....


http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/p ... tscret.htm
"I try to keep 'Thou shalt not kill.' The rest of them I'm kind of shaky on." Willie Nelson
"Forget The Drama, Shut Up And Play." ME

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Links: http://badassbassplayers.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/BadAssBassPlayerscom
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http://wwwwww.tonewavetech.com

Re: "The Workhorse" is Aging... Electrical Help?

Postby GonzoBass » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:05 am

Thanks Pete!
I also talked with a Tech/Soundman at tonight's gig
and he gave me some additional info on this very same subject.
[smilie=grinning-smiley-003.gif]

He also suggested I may have created a Ground Loop.
Gonna have another go at it in the morning...
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Aloha-
Papa Gonzo
User avatar
GonzoBass
Global Bouncer
 
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Links: .
Tools:
Steinberger XP2 Workhorse (DB Bridge)
Steinberger XP2 (B-E-A-D)
Steinberger XP2A (Back Up)
Wilkat GonzoBass #001
Fender Deluxe 24 Fret Jazz
EBMM Stingray Natural/Maple
Xavier Custom 6 String
Ibanez AEB10K Acoustic
Dean Rhapsody 8 String
Carvin BK2A Fretless
Gibson EB3 (Project)
Epiphone Newport EBS
Synsonic Half Scale
Fender Mandolin
A couple Flea Ukuleles
and a few guitars...

Rigs:
Small-
GK MB112 combo
Medium-
GK MB500
GK 2x10 Neo
Large-
GK 1001 Mark II 2x10 combo
GK 1x15 RBS

Effects:
Line 6 Bass POD XT Live
BBE 462 Sonic Maximizer

Re: "The Workhorse" is Aging... Electrical Help?

Postby Gil Escalera » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:51 am

GonzoBass wrote:He also suggested I may have created a Ground Loop.

That's what I'm thinking over here. Can you take a picture of the wiring?

- Gil
To "B" or not to "B"... that is the question. ;)
User avatar
Gil Escalera
Global Bouncer
 
Location: Upland, CA

Re: "The Workhorse" is Aging... Electrical Help?

Postby GonzoBass » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:27 am

Image

Image

The new ground wire is soldered to the center ring of the jack (sleeve).
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Image

Aloha-
Papa Gonzo
User avatar
GonzoBass
Global Bouncer
 
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Links: .
Tools:
Steinberger XP2 Workhorse (DB Bridge)
Steinberger XP2 (B-E-A-D)
Steinberger XP2A (Back Up)
Wilkat GonzoBass #001
Fender Deluxe 24 Fret Jazz
EBMM Stingray Natural/Maple
Xavier Custom 6 String
Ibanez AEB10K Acoustic
Dean Rhapsody 8 String
Carvin BK2A Fretless
Gibson EB3 (Project)
Epiphone Newport EBS
Synsonic Half Scale
Fender Mandolin
A couple Flea Ukuleles
and a few guitars...

Rigs:
Small-
GK MB112 combo
Medium-
GK MB500
GK 2x10 Neo
Large-
GK 1001 Mark II 2x10 combo
GK 1x15 RBS

Effects:
Line 6 Bass POD XT Live
BBE 462 Sonic Maximizer

Re: "The Workhorse" is Aging... Electrical Help?

Postby Gil Escalera » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:42 pm

AH-HA! [smilie=icon_eek.gif]

Based on the pic and your drawing, it appears that you are missing a signal (+) wire connecting the volume pots to the tone pot. Compare to this drawing:

Image

That would cause the problems you are experiencing as well as the tone pot affecting the "buzz" signal.

Other than that, everything else looks cool. [smilie=cool-smiley-031.gif]

- Gil
To "B" or not to "B"... that is the question. ;)
User avatar
Gil Escalera
Global Bouncer
 
Location: Upland, CA

Re: "The Workhorse" is Aging... Electrical Help?

Postby MoBeach » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:51 pm

Gil Escalera wrote:AH-HA! [smilie=icon_eek.gif]

Based on the pic and your drawing, it appears that you are missing a signal (+) wire connecting the volume pots to the tone pot. Compare to this drawing:

That would cause the problems you are experiencing as well as the tone pot affecting the "buzz" signal.

Other than that, everything else looks cool. [smilie=cool-smiley-031.gif]

- Gil


I think the wire you're talking about is partially hidden, it appears to be attached to the far side of the bridge volume pot and appears to be going to the iuput jack. I can't tell if it loops around under the jack and is attached to the tone pot or not. Even if it's in the right place it shouldn't be touching other components besides the one it's supposed to be attached to.

Karl Hoyt re wired a bass Doug built for me, it definitely needed cleaning up [smilie=grinning-smiley-044.gif]
Bye
MoBeach
 
Location: Cape Cod
Links: Custom Build P/J, ESP D6, Schecter C4, Yamaha RBX-A2 (E,A,D,G,C) Brice fretless 6er.
Gallien Krueger Fusion 550 head through Genz Benz cabs.

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