gibson gets fined

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gibson gets fined

Postby pbassplayer » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:02 pm

gibson guitar co will pay a $300k fine for illegal importing of some woods...seems a little steep to me... gibson was a e/z target for the feds
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Re: gibson gets fined

Postby bigfatbass » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:32 am

I don't have time right now, but I've read quite a bit on this. It appears Gibson got caught with internal memos saying they knew some of the wood was illegally logged/milled. The Lacey act is as much to protect the sources of the wood, and the denizens of these 3rd world countries from the loggers, as it is to protect American mills from underpriced raw wood.

Granted the ridiculous armed raid was complete jack-booted bullshit, but the crime existed, the wood was rightfully confiscated, and the fines levied.

I'll post some links later that explain it all better than I could.

The idiots screaming "extortion" are so light on facts and actual impact it's not funny.
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Re: gibson gets fined

Postby BigDaveOnBass » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:29 am

Here are the questions that beg to be asked. How much did the raid cost the taxpayers? Did the $300K fine cover the costs of said raid? In the end, was it all really worth it?
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Re: gibson gets fined

Postby bigfatbass » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:35 am

People are dying, in a very real way, because of the devastation caused by illegal wood harvest in these countries. I think Gibson got a slap on the wrist for supporting these jackals.

Don't know about the costs, but it sure would be cool if it was a financial wash. Gibson wouldn't notice a fine 10 times that size. They are charging $4000 for guitars that cost $600-$700 to make, and selling 10s of thousands of them. If you can't turn a profit on that margin, get out of the guitar biz.
"Time Is the river, eternity is the ocean, music is the water.
Play what you hear, hear what you play.
Trust your ears, serve your soul." ~Philip Toshio Sudo "Zen Guitar"



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Re: gibson gets fined

Postby Kevin Probass Borden » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:41 am

Gibson and extortion maybe.. But wear the extortion comes in is Gibson and the smaller dealers. IMO theres massive collusion between Gibson and the big box stores to squeeze out smaller dealers. I hear this at every trade show so Im not gonna shed a tear - right or wrong...
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Re: gibson gets fined

Postby Rhian Batson » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:58 pm

Via NPR this morning, I understood that the 350k fine (300k fine and 50k for future conservation) was an out of court settlement between Gibson Corp. and the Fed as it was cheaper than a lengthy court battle - similar to bullsh*t WFM antitrust settlement. This however should not be looked at as an admittance of guilt in any way as the federal government did not pursue beyond the settlement/prove guilt.

Extortion - No. However this does illustrate to the rest of business that the federal government can tie up huge amounts of capital and crap on your image all the way to effectively bankrupting your business via lengthy court battles & impacted sales. Gibson had the misfortune of being the latest example of a very effective message ie: fear mongering to get the business rank n' file to fall into line. Tough politics if you ask me.
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Re: gibson gets fined

Postby kennans » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:29 pm

Gibson also gave up it's suit to recover the confiscated wood.

Gibson got caught, lied about it, got caught AGAIN, red-handed with faked up, unattributed order sheets, then started whining about jack-booted thugs to try to make this a Tea Party 'cause celeb.' No proof of guilt? Umm...sure. Why not. But really, everybody knows.

Nero is the Emperor of Gibson these days. And I hope they're selling a lot of guitars to collectors, because players sure can't use the product that's slipping through Quality Control there these days.
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Re: gibson gets fined

Postby bigfatbass » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:25 am

A kid was flailing on a $3100 goldtop at a local shop, I asked to check it out, and had to get "permission" from the wonk that had allowed him to touch it. I played it for about 45 seconds. Instantly noticeable bumps in the neck gel coat, and the 4th and 9th frets were sticking out so far on the low E side I thought I was holding an SX.

Late 70s Fender anyone?
"Time Is the river, eternity is the ocean, music is the water.
Play what you hear, hear what you play.
Trust your ears, serve your soul." ~Philip Toshio Sudo "Zen Guitar"



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Re: gibson gets fined

Postby Kevin Probass Borden » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:52 am

Not to defend or flog Gibson here but I handle 1000s of new andlate model gear yearly. The Gibson stuff is quite good. Owning a shop, it is expected that fret ends protrude or frets lift. We're supposed to do some maint work. The finishes - it could be shop wear. In reality the only MFG I see weirdness from out of the box is G&L. A few short years ago, I bought a BRAND NEW custom creation hog semi hollow ASAT that the frets literally fell out of the bass because the slots were double sawn. Matt helped me get that returned.... G&L stiuff has a tendency to be weird.... The other big USA MFGs have been a-ok...
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Re: gibson gets fined

Postby Rhian Batson » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:31 pm

kennans wrote:Gibson also gave up it's suit to recover the confiscated wood.

Gibson got caught, lied about it, got caught AGAIN, red-handed with faked up, unattributed order sheets, then started whining about jack-booted thugs to try to make this a Tea Party 'cause celeb.' No proof of guilt? Umm...sure. Why not. But really, everybody knows.

Nero is the Emperor of Gibson these days. And I hope they're selling a lot of guitars to collectors, because players sure can't use the product that's slipping through Quality Control there these days.


I must state that I am not a Gibson fanboy - dont own a single one [smilie=grinning-smiley-044.gif] . Anyhow, Kennan if there was so much proof, why did the government settle? I as a tax payer would fully expect them to prosecute if there was a case & evidence to support such wrong doing as BFB pointed out - this type of bad business has a real human life impact.
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Re: gibson gets fined

Postby hoytbasses » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:14 am

One can make a beautiful sounding /looking instrument with responsibly harvested, locally grown materials. F---Gibson. the fine should have been tripled if collusion could be proven. The worst part is that the shady people dealing in endangered woods no only screw the environment but they screw the poor below-subsistence farmer/native who'se land they invaded to get said wood.

Personally, I only buy my non-locally harvested woods from Luthier's Mercantile on the west coast. They expend lots of money and energy ensuring that they only sell responsibly harvested/sustainable woods and they refuse to sell stuff like madagascar ebony or brazilian rosewood because there is NO responsible/legitimate way to source that wood. They're also leaders in the luthier world for introducing new species that are non endangered, beautiful, and responsibly harvested.

you will probably see a bunch of Hoytbasses being made with pau-ferro, jatoba, bubinga, purpleheart,and maple fingerboards as time goes by.. just because even Indian Rosewood is now bordering on scarce. I don't care much for ebony anyhow.

have an enjoyable rest of the week, all.
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Re: gibson gets fined

Postby oneluckyguy » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:18 pm

Where all the links at? oO

Played 5 gorgeous Gibs last month & 'arf dozen Epi's last couple months. Played well, looked good, one with deadest strings in existence & one with in-store rash (looked like). Would've had frets smoothed on couple of the Epi's. Unlike I hear so regularly you can't constantly turn out crap and stay in business in any society that provides a choice of purchased product.


80's American Cars anyone?


Thought they started Pleking the newer high end Gibson releases at the factory? Dunno.

Meh. I settled a $750,000 Sexual Harassment suit against myself & all other males at a biz I worked at. Utter BS but she took ehhhhh think it was $7,000 in the end. Paid it in quarters delivered to her lawyers =) To fight it at the time would have started at $25,000 and gone up from there. I'm not thrilled to death with the 'they settled' thus 'they guilty' shit after that.
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Re: gibson gets fined

Postby bigfatbass » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:22 am

I totally understand that things shift with weather/shipping etc., and even shop wear. I've owned a couple of those bad-jig 80's Martins over the years, lol.

[smilie=fun_84.gif]


I guess my beef was that such an expensive instrument was treated with such unwarranted reverie, and actually needed some serious work to even make it a player. Isn't a $3100 axe supposed to be worth a $100 fret dressing?
"Time Is the river, eternity is the ocean, music is the water.
Play what you hear, hear what you play.
Trust your ears, serve your soul." ~Philip Toshio Sudo "Zen Guitar"



Viva Los Blancos!
http://www.casablancos.com
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